Changing the perception of sustainability: An interview with the co-founders of Paynter
Launched in 2019, Paynter combines the excitement of the ‘drop model’ synonymous with brands like Supreme with a radical commitment to sustainability and zero waste. In this interview, co-founders Becky Okell and Huw Thomas talk to eatbigfish Strategy Director Emily Horswell about their ambition to show an alternative way of building a fashion business, the company’s adoption of ‘slow’ and limited commerce, and how they keep customers excited while they wait, often up to eight weeks, for their jackets to arrive.
First things first, why did you start Paynter?
Huw: It started as a side project. Becky and I had only just started dating, and I showed her this vintage blue jacket, one of a few workwear items I’d been collecting. We’d talked about wanting to create something together, and we decided to recreate this iconic French jacket from scratch. We spent nine months designing and sourcing all the materials, and we were documenting the journey on social media. Our followers were asking us when it would be released, and we thought perhaps this wasn’t just a side project; maybe this could be a brand. But fashion is such a wasteful industry, and it’s generally about releasing more and more and more. So we wanted to challenge that idea and be a case study or an experiment that would show a different way of doing things. So we thought, let’s go to the extreme opposite and limit the number of products available.
Preparing for product photography of Batch 3.5 at home. Photograph: Paynter
Becky: We’re more of a clothing brand than a fashion brand, and we’d rather make well-made staples that will be around this year, next year, and the year after that. Rather than make radical clothing, we wanted our business model to be the thing that pushes boundaries. So that was kind of our first realisation. We decided to make 300 jackets for our first batch because that’s what a factory’s minimum order tends to be. It was quite an intimidating number. But the first batch sold out in 14 minutes, and we were completely gobsmacked. We were dating long-distance, me in London, Huw in Wales, and we only saw each other at the weekend. The plan was to arrive at Huw’s parents’ on Friday night, and we could have dinner and make sure that the website was working; then, we’d sell them at 9 am on Saturday and open it up for a week. But minutes later, they were gone, and we quickly had to turn the website off. It was amazing. Our customers set the tone for how our jackets would be sold, one Batch at a time. That's how it’s gone since.
Huw: It’s interesting because when we were starting out and filling our business with values that were important to us both personally, researching ‘sustainable brands’ wasn’t very exciting. There’s a lot of greenwashing to wade through, and then products made from fantastic, sustainable materials, weren't in demand and therefore contributed to our industry's vast amount of waste. We decided that we'd lean strongly into one area of ‘sustainability’ and that was having a clear stance to never overproduce, and to make our product something exciting that you can really get behind. We thought, what if you could get people as excited as they were about a Supreme drop, but for a more sustainable product.
Becky: The other thing that we’re really trying to push is the actual making experience and the making journey because a challenge that we have as a brand is that we live in the era of Amazon Prime and people expect to buy something and expect a delivery notification within a couple of hours. Whereas once we’ve received the order it takes about eight weeks to make a product. So we’ve got a long time to keep people excited before it arrives.
How do you keep customers motivated?
Paynter share video updates of product development each week. Photograph: Paynter
Becky: Once you’ve placed an order, you’ll get an update by email every week, with a video from the factory of your jacket being made — everything from weaving the fabric, making the buttons, to who’s making it and how — you get to see it all.
Huw: We have a videographer in Portugal who goes into the factory every week, and he’ll capture everything. Customers have told us it’s changed how they look at clothes. Customers can see, for example, how we take this nut and turn it into a button that goes on one of our coats. We show the manufacturing process, and it interests us, so hopefully, it interests our customers.
Becky: I think you’re much more likely to take better care of a product if you know how much love and skill have gone into it. We had the idea because we were worried customers might get bored and want a refund by the time eight weeks came around. So we thought, well, let’s at least make this journey entertaining and it’s turned into something that people have loved.
Huw: Especially during the lockdowns. I think it was September 2020, and we released a corduroy jacket, and we were about to go back into lockdown in November, and we were sending these weekly updates. We were getting emails saying that Paynter was the best thing ever because it was something they could look forward to during that time. So our delivery is more of an event than just ongoing retail.
I guess it also works to make customers quite evangelical, you know, if their friend complements them on their jacket, you’re giving them much more to talk about.
Huw: Yes, we might go into a specific detail one week. For example, when we launched the wool coat, we showed customers the process we used to test whether the fabric was waterproof. We’d be in our spare room with a flashlight showing customers how light going through the material would mean that wind would go through too. It’s hopefully an experience that you've never had buying an item of clothing before. And giving a totally different experience is where we want to keep innovating.
Becky: Yeah. And if we made collections of loads of clothes, we’d have no hope of being able to story tell on that level. But because we only do four jackets a year... we’ve got time.
What’s the ambition for the business?
Becky: Stay in business. [All laughing] Stay independent. We started with savings and have reinvested profits, so we just got a studio. It’s just the two of us, but we want to get some help this year. But we don’t want to turn this into a massive company doing a lot more clothing and hiring lots of different departments. We’d rather be an example of how a business can be independent and successful but stay small and not get greedy in an industry that is often the opposite.
Huw: Fashion is usually an industry where you have to go into massive debt to have collections and runway shows. And we’re not going to do that. We want to go in a completely different direction and show that you can go another way, and it can work. So I think by keeping it small, people will see our route as an option.
Becky: Education is really important to both of us. Not just educating people about how their jackets are made but also how we scrambled around and created a business in a very DIY sense. So in our newsletters, we will share how we did something or the journey to getting this product to life and the things that went wrong. We have a very creative following, and we also have a following of people who are in business themselves and find that content interesting. So we like sharing the behind the scenes of the company as well as the clothing.
Huw: Because creatives don’t like to talk about money, we thought we’d talk about money. We showed customers film of us at the post office selling our things on eBay to fund a trip to Paris so we could eventually find factories and build things. We’re not doing it because we have a lot of money; we want to show how we get the money to do it and show that we’re really lean.
Becky: Yeah, and it’s quite a challenge because if someone finds out about Paynter the day after we’ve sold a batch, they could be confused about visiting a website with nothing for sale, or at least for a few months.
We talk about embracing constraints at eatbigfish, and you guys seem to be a grade-A example of doing that.
Becky: Constraints have always led to our most valuable decisions as a business. Our first photoshoot was shot on iPhone because we had to, and then we shared exactly how we did it because we had no kit, models or stylists or lighting or any of that stuff that would overcomplicate it.
If an iPhone is good enough for Apple it’s good enough for you. How are you doing in terms of scale? 300 jackets sold in 14 minutes would be impressive for anybody, but is there anything else?
Huw: We sold 750 jackets in two minutes.
Bloody hell. What batch was that?
Becky: No. 4. Our corduroy chore jacket.
Huw: Yeah, it’s the one that kept us in business.
Becky: We recorded a behind the scenes video to share with customers what a launch looks like on our computer from the front and back end. And us being like, fuck, this is really scary.
There’s such a thread of transparency running through what you’re doing.
Huw: Yeah, it’s a different way of doing it. So we looked at brands like Everlane and Arket, and they talk about their factories, and that's a level of transparency, but we thought if everyone else is doing that, then how can we approach it differently? How can we be more human and approachable? So our car coat that’s coming out uses the same Italian mill that Burberry and Aquascutum use. It’s the best of the best. But instead of us charging £600 for a coat, we charge £265. But we never talk about pricing. So some of our communication is between the lines a little.
Becky: On the scale thing, people ask us whether we’re making the most value of what Paynter could be, and it’s an interesting question. Someone once really wanted to invest in us. They said we should be doing trousers, t-shirts, everything in the wardrobe. And it was exciting, but from day one, we’ve never wanted to be that big. It wouldn't suit us personally, but what excites us, more importantly, is that someone else can do this for shoes and trousers. We don’t have to have that whole pie. We’re pleased with the portion that we have. So we’d rather scale in ambition and show that something’s possible by putting it out there than having to do it all ourselves. We don’t have to be an Arcadia-sized business to have an impact.
Huw: For our first Christmas party, we invited our customers to join Becky and I for ‘Paynter at the Pub’ — drinks at a pub near Old Street. There was no new product launch or action plan; it was just about coming to hang out with us for a pint.
Becky: It was amazing. There was a whole corner of the pub in our Olive jackets at one stage! We’ll be doing another in a few months!
Paynter’s care label. Photograph: Paynter
Who is Paynter’s target customer? Is there a mindset?
Becky: Creatives, open-minded, definitely interested in sustainability and a different way of doing things.
Huw: When you take the mindset route, you get people of all ages. We have customers in their mid-20s who are all about the hype of the drop and getting the cop, and then we have a 74-year-old lady in Sweden, who loves our products and our way of working. So, yeah, it’s a mix.
Do you have any guiding principles for how you approach the brand? Or is it just what comes naturally to your personalities?
Huw: People often bang their heads against the wall, trying to think about what the story is. When it comes to communication, we ask, what’s the truth? We try to tell the truth and make sure we say it in an entertaining way.
Becky: Building in public is something we do. From the start, we were building the actual brand and the company in public, but also, with every product that we make, we will share the journey along with it. We’ll say to our audience; this is what we’re thinking; what do you reckon? We’ll get our customers involved in that process, so they’ve helped shape the product. It gives people the feeling of a bit of ownership over Paynter too.
Huw: We usually include a little gift with every jacket that we send out. So for Batch No. 4, we sent out a Haeckels perfume, and we’ve sent out Tony’s Chocolonely bars all over the world. And we sent out the photographer Andrew Paynter’s book with the last jacket, so people understand who we named the business after.
Thank you both so much for your time.
Emily Horswell is a Strategy Director at eatbigfish — a global strategic consultancy dedicated to challenger brands and the challenger mindset.
